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This time in Cleveland. And this time instead of the known to be violent right wingers they chose Anarchists. Hmm interesting timing there.

Occupy Cleveland has cancelled their May Day events.

FBI-1 Liberty-0

According to the FBI, the five thought they had purchased two improvised explosive devices with a C4 remote detonator. They suspects placed them at the base of the bridge Monday night. At 9:09 p.m., the FBI said the suspects tried to trigger the explosives with a remote access code and the bomb did not go off. The five were then arrested by agents who were monitoring the group via video.

The FBI said the bombs placed at the bridge were duds.

According to the FBI, Wright, Baxter and Hayne are self-proclaimed anarchists who formed into a small group and considered a series of evolving plots over several months.

The FBI said the public was never in danger from the explosive devices, as the transaction was handled by an undercover FBI employee.

MAD SPY vs SPY

This was found on Twitter.

Occupy Everywhere ‏ @WeAllOccupy

Why are they releasing this Cleveland crap now? They must be VERY VERY afraid of protests to create smokescreens like this. OR just BOUGHT.
Marianne Marianne ‏ @flipsville

@WeAllOccupy They were arrested last night. That's why it's been released now.
7:47 AM - 1 May 12 via web ·

1h Occupy Everywhere Occupy Everywhere ‏ @WeAllOccupy

@flipsville Are you serious? They were arrested last night because that's when the govt decided to arrest them. #transparent
1h Marianne Marianne ‏ @flipsville

@WeAllOccupy They were arrested last night because that's when they allegedly planted the explosives. Like you, I await the evidence.
1h Occupy Everywhere Occupy Everywhere ‏ @WeAllOccupy

@flipsville i know it's asking a lot - if you spot an informative article - can you try to holler at me? I will try to do the same.
54m Marianne Marianne ‏ @flipsville

@WeAllOccupy Here is something interesting: http://www.newsnet5.com/... And I don't know any of these guys!
36m Occupy Everywhere Occupy Everywhere ‏ @WeAllOccupy

@flipsville it's a good read - thx - just read the affidavit - good read... http://media2.newsnet5.com/...

Here is the PDF of the report made by the FBI

Originally posted to Police Accountability Group on Tue May 01, 2012 at 09:28 AM PDT.

Also republished by Occupy Wall Street.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Ironic isn't it (5+ / 0-)

    The banks all but blew up Cleveland in the wake of destruction left by the foreclosure mess. I don't see any of the CEO's of those banks going to jail.

    •  And all the FBI would have to do (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mookins, Joieau, wu ming, indres

      is drink cocktails with them and wave a little money their way and they can entrap the bankers quite handily.

      Oh wait. Bankers can afford lawyers.

      Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Tue May 01, 2012 at 09:38:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Horace, read the document: these are Black Bloc. (6+ / 0-)

        They were clearly out to destroy shit and kill people.  

        Last night their fellow Black Bloc whiteboy goons went on a rampage through a Latino neighborhood of San Francisco, without even trying to look like any kind of protest.

        These people are not Occupy, they are not progressives, they are not even "legitimate" anarchists who do stuff like building community centers and taking over abandoned lots for neighborhood food gardens.  

        They are SCUM, they are violent thugs who wrap themselves in ideology just like the fucking Ku Klux Klan, and they deserve the prison sentences they are going to get.  Don't go minimizing what they did by making excuses and trying to blame the FBI.  Really: you do nobody a service with that line.

        "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:37:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They were disruptors (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wu ming

          at Occupy gatherings.   It can be argued, however, that the FBI decided to use them in a scheme to discredit the local Occupy movement.  

          The FBI/USA in NE Ohio are not a wholly trustworthy group.  They have a long history of ignoring right wing and GoP scandals (Coingate)  while trying to cause trouble for Dems and liberals.  It's basically the same crew that Bush put in place, a group that Rove has worked with in the past to cause problems.  

          "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

          by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 12:00:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  even a stopped clock is right twice a day. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sharon Wraight, edrie

            Even if the local FBI up there have ideological motives, the cases against this particular bunch of creeps will stand or fall on their merits.  

            What we have to do is parse these situations carefully in order to be sure to get our message across.

            And part of that is making the distinction between "good anarchists" who build stuff such as community centers and urban agriculture, and "bad pseudo-anarchists" such as Black Bloc who are basically assholes with excuses.  

            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 01:00:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not sure who you're referring to (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hmi

              but I don't regard anyone who uses violence as "good" regardless of their cause or their label, even if  their actions are sanctioned by Congress.

              "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

              by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 01:11:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  stopped clock = ideological LE. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sharon Wraight, indres

                It may be that the local FBI office is filled with Bush appointees who are politically right wing.  But even so, whatever case they have on the present bunch of suspects, will have to pass muster in front of a jury.  Even Bush appointees who are politically right wing, can do successful investigations & prosecutions.  

                Now of course we want them to turn their bright spotlight on financial crimes, and that needs to be the subject of big noisy protests the moment the election is concluded and Obama's got his second term.  But the fact that there was not also today announced some decent indictments of corporate fraudsters, doesn't make any less important the fact that a bunch of arseholes who wanted to bring down a bridge were stopped in their tracks.  

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 03:02:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What we don't want them to do (0+ / 0-)

                  is infiltrate legitimate protest groups like Occupy with the intention of finding a few crazy Beavis & Butthead types  they can entice into a crazy plot in order to discredit honest, law abiding protestors.  Not to mention the extra benefit of casting aspersions on the organized labor organizations who support peaceful protest.

                  Yes, it will be interesting to see the evidence when a trial begins. Given that the judge in charge of the case was the US Atty who covered up the GOP Coingate scandal, its not likely we'll see much of anything.

                  "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

                  by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 03:27:24 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  they didn't infiltrate Occupy. (3+ / 0-)

                    Per the sworn statement:

                    They were observing at Occupy rallies and noticed a group that was constantly advocating violence and saying "fuck this shit" when protest organizers called for peaceful civil disobedience.

                    They infiltrated that group: the Black Bloccers, not Occupy.  Black Bloc is not Occupy.

                    Pretty quickly they found the Black Bloccers making plans for violent acts some of which could have resulted in multiple casualties.  One of the Black Bloccers started asking around about how to make or get explosives to plant a bomb on a bridge.  That's when the FBI actually intervened, to arrange for fake explosives rather than real ones.  This is their standard method in cases like this: wait until someone starts shopping for explosives and then substitute fake ones.  

                    The rest of it was pretty routine: and it ends with the Black Bloc guy trying to detonate the "bomb" (with the fake explosives) remotely, and then getting busted.

                    It's not about enticing people into a plot.  And the evidence will show that the undercover informant gave the Black Bloc guys numerous chances to reconsider and opt out of the plan, but that they pressed ahead with it at each stage.  

                    These cases have become so standardized that this is how it's going to come out in court, and the result will be lengthy prison sentences.

                    And at this very moment here in Oakland California, Black Bloc has been on a rampage that started last night in San Francisco trashing a Latino neighborhood and continued today trashing downtown Oakland.  Those people are doing a major disservice to our movement, they are turning the public against us, and they need to be stopped.  I would be perfectly happy to see a bunch of the window-smashers locked up for a couple of years.  

                    "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                    by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 04:09:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Read the local news coverage (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sean X, indres

                      They did infiltrate Occupy Cleveland, they've all but admitted they did.

                      This is a local issue in many respects.  If you don't live in this area and you won't understand how things "work" around here.

                      It's not the same as Oakland and the black bloc activities out here.  

                      This is about, shall we say, local "rat farking" by local FBI, backed by the local news media and local corporate fat cats who don't like dissent.

                      It's been this way since Kent State, since the labor riots, since the days of John D. Rockefeller.  Its local.

                      "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

                      by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 05:56:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  In addition (0+ / 0-)

                        The FBI had several opportunities to arrest these guys before today, before the plot was cooked up to ridiculously violent proportions.  One of them had been arrested before at a Occupy rally.  

                        If they truly had the public's safety in mind, they would have arrested them months ago. The FBI and local LE  had enough evidence that they were engaged in criminal activity.

                        They chose not to arrest the troublemakers, but instead cultivated them until they had something big that could be exposed on May 1, the day when Occupy Cleveland had a protest scheduled at General Electric's headquarters in Nela Park.

                        "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

                        by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 06:03:17 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  go look up the Hutarees. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Sharon Wraight

                          That's what happens if you pounce before the perp has their explosives (or the fake ones you're going to substitute).

                          "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                          by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 07:58:38 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  These were a bunch of homeless young men (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sean X, indres, SouthernLiberalinMD

                            some suffering mental illness and emotional problems who were pushed by a crackhead with an extensive criminal record working for the FBI into doing something really stupid.  

                            According to the news articles, the crackhead was paid over $6,000 for his "help".

                            They were not part of an organized criminal enterprise or organization.  Some of them even tried to back out before it happened. Peer pressure and psychological manipulation can be very powerful.

                            This deserves full investigation and so far it's not pretty. Some may be guilty and deserving of punishment, some not.  

                            And then there's the timing of the whole thing. And the fact that the FBI had the opportunity to arrest some of them before the plot was hatched.  

                            "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

                            by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 08:56:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i get the distinct feeling that you and I.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            indres

                            ... are never going to agree about this one.  That's OK, seeing as we're not on the jury.

                            As for "homeless young men with mental health issues," yeah that would describe a lot of the psycho-killers out there.  Which is why there comes a point where civil commitment to psychiatric hospitals is a viable option, and it's arguably more humane than prison.  

                            OTOH, those kids are a damn good arguement for an unlimited right to contraception and abortion.  'Tis more humane to never have been born, than to be born, screw up that badly, and throw your life away behind bars.

                            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                            by G2geek on Wed May 02, 2012 at 01:40:38 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Thank you, Betty (0+ / 0-)

                        for all our disagreements over the Clintons, I have the utmost respect for your bs detector, and it's accurate as hell on this one.

                        Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

                        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed May 02, 2012 at 12:55:07 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  no, it's Black Bloc again: (5+ / 0-)

      Point 12 in the linked affadavit
      http://media2.newsnet5.com/...
      makes it very clear that what's being described here is another Black Bloc group, even to the point of noting that these individuals were acting differently than the regular protesters, were promoting violence in the crowd, and stormed off saying "Fuck that!" when the protest organizers emphasized peaceful civil disobedience.

      Point 20 specifically quotes one of the defendants as talking about "Black Block" (sic) tactics.

      Point 33, one of the suspects asks specifically "how much (explosive) do we need to take out a bridge?"

      I'm going to read the rest of that document, but it appears pretty clear so far that these people initiated the whole escapade, and the undercover informant recorded the relevant conversations.  

      Bottom line is: these were not innocent protesters, these were Black Bloc goons, and they were seeking to commit violent acts.

      And last night in San Francisco, another crowd of Black Bloc went on a rampage through the (largely Latino) Mission District, carrying crowbars and smashing windows and trashing cars and scaring the shit out of people who were at the local restaurants.  That was not a "protest."  It was nothing more than mob violence.

      Black Bloc are SCUM.  They should be SHUNNED by Occupy, and they deserve exactly what they're going to get, the longer the sentences, the better.

      "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:32:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Meanwhile... (15+ / 0-)

    NYPD Raids Activists’ Homes Before May Day Protests

    A day before Occupy Wall Street hopes to shut down New York and cities across the country in massive May Day protests, the NYPD visited at least three activist homes in New York and interrogated residents about plans for tomorrow's protest.

    Today "there was definitely an upswing in law enforcement activity that seemed to fit the pattern of targeting what police might view as political residences," said Gideon Oliver, the president of the New York Chapter of the National Lawyers Guild, which offers legal to support to Occupy Wall Street. "They were asking what are your May Day plans, do you know who the leaders are—these are classic political surveillance questions."

    "I wish I could tell you, in the midst of all of this, that President Obama was waging the kind of fight against these draconian Republican proposals that the American people would like to see. He is not." -- Senator Bernie Sanders

    by Sagebrush Bob on Tue May 01, 2012 at 09:38:17 AM PDT

    •  Yeah I caught that one yesterday. nt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mookins, JML9999

      Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Tue May 01, 2012 at 09:43:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I really don't understand. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sharon Wraight, trumpeter, hmi, indres

        Even if you are correct in your assumptions.  These 5 men were offered explosives by the FBI and encouraged to blow up a bridge.  (big assumption in my opinion)  They attempt to blow up the bridge and you think the FBI is wrong?  Seriously??

        I would hope that any parent could back me up here.  Just because someone told you to do something does not excuse you from doing it.  I don't let my kids get away with that, and I sure wouldn't let an adult use that as an excuse.  

        They were adults.  They chose to pursue a course of action that involved blowing up a bridge (very dangerous).  They attempted to blow up the bridge.  We should be happy that they were stopped before someone got hurt.  WTF?  

        I don't like the idea of being associated in any way with these 5 idiots.  I don't care about the history of anarchy.  Once they decided it was ok to blow up a bridge, they lost all credibility with me.  

        Not all people respond to rational argument. I interact everyday with people who don't.  There are a variety of reasons, but the result is the same.  They ignore anything other than what they believe to be true. Think of it as trying to convince a birther that Barack Obama was born in the US.  Not going to happen, no matter what you say.
        I work in public safety and can assure you that the need for this type of action is very real.

        •  It seems like a false Flag (5+ / 0-)

          The American government has a long history of infiltrating and attempting to incite violence within protest movements.

          It's something most Americans rarely learn about in primary school. Basically you learn about this when you take Ethnic Studies, Women's History, or some of the obscure classes in Political Science.

          •  Evidence please? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sharon Wraight, Caipirinha

            It is so easy to assume everything is aplot against the left.  

            fantasy land.  It "seems."

            If it were a false flag, the briege would have been blown up.

             

            I'm from the Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner Wing of the Democratic Party!

            by TomP on Tue May 01, 2012 at 12:48:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not necessarily (0+ / 0-)

              They have been practicing this bit not only on Right Wing Wackos they have used it on those that have different culture. They have a pattern and they are sticking to it.

              Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

              by Horace Boothroyd III on Tue May 01, 2012 at 01:25:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's a form of job security, or even economic (4+ / 0-)

                stimulation. Put enough CIs on the street and there could theoretucally be jobs for everyone.

                The difference between the wannabes and the real guys (McVeigh, Al Qaida, even the whacko wo flew his small plane into the federal building in Texas) is that real guys are strictly do it yourself. They don't go leafing through the want ads under "IED's for sale".

                See, here's something that's underappreciated. There didn't have to be any bomb at all for there to be a case. The conspiracy is enough to put those folks out of commission in perpetuity.

                The bomb was strictly for the T.V. cameras.

                There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

                by oldpotsmuggler on Tue May 01, 2012 at 04:10:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Still doesn't matter to me. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caipirinha, hmi

            I am 100% responsible for my actions.  I expect others to be 100% responsible for theirs.  It appears they chose to purchase explosives and to attempt to blow up the bridge.  They are responsible, not the FBI, not anyone else.  If there is contrary evidence presented later, then I will change my opinion accordingly.

            I don't know about infiltrating protest movements etc.  I don't necessarily agree with that.  However there is no evidence that the FBI did anything wrong in this case.  The idea that we should excuse 5 people who wanted to blow up a bridge because the FBI might have wrongfully infiltrated their protest movement is ridiculous.  I don't want people blowing up bridges.  I don't care what organization they are affiliated with.  

            I honestly can't believe we are having this conversation.  This seems crazy to me.

    •  That's just really creepy. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Horace Boothroyd III, JML9999


      Not this mind and not this heart, I won't rot • Mumford & Sons

      by jayden on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:01:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  They don't like May Day in Ohio (5+ / 0-)

    Someone must feel very threatened by the Cleveland area Occupation activities.

    From news reports, it sounds like this was a fringe group of young adults who got lured into planning something really dumb.   Sounds a bit like entrapment.

    From what I've read, the Cleveland area May 5 activities are continuing as planned.

    "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

    by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 09:48:15 AM PDT

    •  it's not entrapment (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Chrisfs, G2geek, hmi, icemilkcoffee

      I hope the FBI and police continue to weed out violent extremists from the OWS movement, and from the Muslim community.

      •  but they shouldn't waste any time on the far right (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, freesia, Lost and Found, indres

        or did you just forget about them?

      •  We don't have the facts yet (5+ / 0-)

        But it does appear from the arrest warrant that the FBI was using both a paid informant and an undercover officer to influence the group for the last several months.

        All we know so far is what the FBI alleges about the planning activities.  

        I'm not sympathetic to anarchists, especially violent ones, but the FBI has engaged in these kinds of activities before.  The timing of the event, suggested by the paid informant and the undercover officer, do seem to be aimed at discrediting the Occupy movement.

        Check the news stories online and read the arrest warrant and probable cause statement.

        "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

        by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:13:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Very good comment. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sharon Wraight

          We don't know a lot.  There is no reason for knee jerk defense of these folks or assuming gov't conspiracies.

          Yes, COINTELPO existed.  But that does not mean everything is always an FBI conspiracy.  

          The timing of the event may well have been chosen by the 5.  We don't know yet.  It could be a bunch of FBI agents want to prevent Occupy Cleveland from doing its thing, but there is no evidence at this time.  The moe likely eexplanation is these bozos tried to buy bombs from an FBI informant to make a statement on May Day and got busted.  

          I don't see how this discredits the May Day event.  Blowing up a bridge would have discreddited it more.

          I'm from the Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner Wing of the Democratic Party!

          by TomP on Tue May 01, 2012 at 12:51:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Amen to that. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sharon Wraight

        And anyone who wants to, can help.  Just hang out at protests where Black Bloc types show up, take lots and lots of pictures, try to follow them until they take their masks off, and take more pictures.   And then hand in the SD card from your camera to the police (use a fresh clean SD card for this, you don't want the photos of you goofing off at a party to come up at the trial:-)

        I want to see these people taken down in no uncertain terms.  

        "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:46:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  why should they focus on two groups (4+ / 0-)

        that have nearly no tradition of domestic terrorism outside of FBI entrapment schemes, but ignore the vast majority of american domestic terrorism in the militia/christian identioty/racist/homophobic/antiabortion groups that don;t seem to need FBI nudging and armaments in order to blow shit up and murder americans?

        •  who says only focus on two groups? (0+ / 0-)

          Certainly not me!!

          I wrote:

          Of course they should, on right-wing extremists. My point is that some people on the left seem to think that police action against 'left-wing', anarchist, or Muslim extremists is wrong. It's not -- it's welcomed by us on dKos. I think you knew this, but chose to pretend you didn't.
          I agree that right-wing extremists (including religious extremists of all faiths) pose a greater threat to the US.

          But it is also not true that domestic anarchist or Muslim groups have "nearly no tradition of domestic terrorism outside of FBI entrapment schemes."  

          •  actually it is completely true (0+ / 0-)

            domestic anarchist groups have at best a legacy of vandalism, and domestic muslims at best have a few isolated individuals  (but even then the overwhelming majority of muslim groups pulling off terror attacks in the US have been foreign groups coming in).

  •  I have no patience for violent anarchist (20+ / 0-)

    Even if the 'violence' is property damage and according to some idiots not reeeally 'violence'.

    It does nothing to further the Occupy movement. It detracts from it because the media will lump them all together.

    In fact, in reading the affidavit, it's clear that these idiots - and they are in fact, idiots - found the Occupy movement not radical or violent enough. They accuse them of working for the corporate overlords - chuckle.

    Regardless of that point, these morons clearly had the motivation to carry out protests to damage property - they were already apparently planning to do so before the confidential information began working with them - and the FBI simply provided the big guns in the form of the fake C-4

    I don't question the timing on this - according the affidavit the group was already planning for a May Day attack.

    The actions of these anarchist kiddies should be roundly condemned. They have no part in the Occupy movement and they have no part in progressive ideals.

    I'm perfectly fine with the FBI taking them down - if they were idiotic enough to entertain the idea of blowing up a bridge then they deserve what they get.

    According to the affidavit - which is the FBI's perspective of course, but has information that they will have to provide evidence for in court - they just provided the means not the intent.

    Idiots.

    Power-Worshipping Fascist

    by campionrules on Tue May 01, 2012 at 09:55:21 AM PDT

    •  agreed (12+ / 0-)

      FBI has to do this.  They need the perps to get caught in the act and it's better if they don't have a live bomb.

      the other option is to watch them until they commit a crime, which might be pretty horrific.

      -You want to change the system, run for office.

      by Deep Texan on Tue May 01, 2012 at 09:59:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's fine to snear at the FBI (9+ / 0-)

        You've got that right to believe whatever you want.

        But I don't see people on this site going FBI 1 - Liberty 0 when the Fed's take down a bunch of senior citizen, right wing racists like those of a couple months ago.

        Anarchist and 'black bloc' tactics have no place on this site.

        They have no place in liberal democracy, so sue me if I don't shed any tears over these idiots going down.

        It puzzles me sometimes, a site dedicated to electing more and better Democrats, to see this hatred and disdain for an agency that was, for once, apparently doing their goddamned job.

        People need to take a pragmatic approach to this. When we act or speak purely out of emotion we become no better than the right.

        Power-Worshipping Fascist

        by campionrules on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:08:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps if our own government were more (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          indres

          trustworthy and consistent, citizens would be more inspired to trust.

          Unfortunately that is not the case. And hasn't been for a long time.

          As a law abiding citizen I always hope that law enforcement does their job within the confines of our laws, but experience has taught me that there is undue corporate influence and undue theocratic influence on our law enforcement in some communities.

          While that doesn't mean all law enforcement folk are corrupt or tainted or what have you, it certainly does erode my trust in these entities.

          The patriot Act erodes my trust in these entities.
          The secret military tribunals erodes my trust in these entities.
          The police brutality against peaceful protesters erodes my trust in these entities.

          This is a cumulative effect and it leaves a deep scar on their appearance as trustworthy public institutions.

          •  no government is trustworthy or (0+ / 0-)

            consistent.

            governments are people and people have issues.

            lots of them.  if you are looking to trust government, public institutions, corporations or any group of people on earth, expect to be disappointed.

            expect it.

            -You want to change the system, run for office.

            by Deep Texan on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:55:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Where did you get the idea (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cany

          that anyone was involved in promoting anarchist black bloc tactics on this site?

          Do you have a link?  I've never seen any such thing.

          "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

          by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:40:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  wait wait wait, Deep Texan agrees with you! (3+ / 0-)

          He's not sneering at you, he's with you on this.  And so am I.  100%.  

          Deep Texan's point is, to make the charges stick, you can't just bust people when they're at the "talking" stage, you have to let them get to the point where they are doing something concrete.  

          FBI went after the Hutarees at the "conspiracy" stage because the Hutarees already had all the weapons they needed to pull off their plot: there was no opportunity to intercept them trying to get explosives and substitute fake explosives or anything like that.   But the risk of busting people at that stage is that they still have plausible deniability.  And the Hutarees made full use of it, and many of them got off.  

          It's "easier" when you're dealing with a group that has to "shop around" for its weaponry, because then you can substitute fakes that won't work, and you still have a viable case because the suspects believed they had actual weapons or explosives and were taking the steps to use them.  

          That's how you catch the perps in the act, with something other than a live bomb, thereby having a slam-dunk case against them with no actual risk to the public.

          "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:56:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  The demonization of anarchism continues (4+ / 0-)

      Let's not forget that this is part of the governments plan to discredit the movement and split it by demonizing and attacking anarchists. The government provides explosives and encouragement to people who would otherwise not be doing this crap. This is more COINTELPRO.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:00:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I wish some of these commenters (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, KenBee, Cassandra Waites

        would read some history regarding Anarchism.

        Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

        by Horace Boothroyd III on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:03:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Okay. This. (3+ / 0-)

          Anarchism

          From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
          "Anarchist" redirects here. For the fictional character, see Anarchist (comics).

          "Anarchists" redirects here. For other uses, see Anarchists (disambiguation).
          Part of the Politics series on
          Anarchism

          Anarchism is generally defined as the political philosophy which holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful,[1][2] or alternatively as opposing authority and hierarchical organization in the conduct of human relations.[3][4][5][6][7][8] Proponents of anarchism, known as "anarchists", advocate stateless societies based on non-hierarchical[3][9][10] voluntary associations.[11][12]

          There are many types and traditions of anarchism, not all of which are mutually exclusive.[13] Anarchist schools of thought can differ fundamentally, supporting anything from extreme individualism to complete collectivism.[2] Strains of anarchism have been divided into the categories of social and individualist anarchism or similar dual classifications.[14][15] Anarchism is often considered to be a radical left-wing ideology,[16][17] and much of anarchist economics and anarchist legal philosophy reflect anti-statist interpretations of communism, collectivism, syndicalism or participatory economics. However, anarchism has always included an individualist strain supporting a market economy and private property, or morally unrestrained egoism.[18][19][20] Some individualist anarchists are also socialists or communists[21][22] while some anarcho-communists are also individualists.[23][24]

          Anarchism as a social movement has regularly endured fluctuations in popularity. The central tendency of anarchism as a mass social movement has been represented by anarcho-communism and anarcho-syndicalism, with individualist anarchism being primarily a literary phenomenon[25] which nevertheless did have an impact on the bigger currents[26] and individualists also participated in large anarchist organizations.[27][28] Most anarchists oppose all forms of aggression, supporting self-defense or non-violence (anarcho-pacifism),[29][30] while others have supported the use of some coercive measures, including violent revolution and propaganda of the deed, on the path to an anarchist society.[31]

          It would be helpful if the diarist reconciled "electing better Democrats"  with support of Anarchists.

          Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

          by EdMass on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:16:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Here's some history - on the Haymarket (3+ / 0-)

          from a diary I just posted.  Especially relevant today because of May Day but also in the light of the tossing around of the word "anarchist" in the media this morning.  It was a term that was used to disgrace and delegitimize the labor leaders of 1886. These five people in Cleveland should more likely be called what they are... accused terrorists.

          May Day 1886... and how four citizens came to hang

        •  Not the way to defend Anarchism (4+ / 0-)

          Posting a post that criticizes the FBI for foiling a bomb attempt and implying it was entrapment (when it wasn't), is definitely not the way to defend or promote Anarchism as a cause.  What you should be doing is stating that these attempted bombers don't represent anarchism rather than complaining about an FBI sting operation .

        •  dude, FYI, I was involved with anarchist projects. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sharon Wraight

          Specifically the "Anarchist Community Center" in Berkeley.

          That was the original name for 924 Gilman St., the club that launched a whole bunch of bands you've probably listened to.

          So I know what legitimate anarchists are and do: mostly they try to build alternative institutions.  That's good work, and it benefits the wider community.

          These Black Block types are NOT that.  They aren't building jack shit.  They're violent thugs wrapping themselves in an ideology to make an excuse.  They're not much different to the KKK, and they deserve to be shut down.  

          "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 12:00:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  How do you know... (5+ / 0-)

        ...that the four individuals "would otherwise not be doing this crap?"

      •  what took them so long? (0+ / 0-)

        your govt at work, slow and ponderous and relentless.

        We all knew this was going to happen, and it will keep happening.

        Yep, Occupy just like Al Q.

        From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

        by KenBee on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:10:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  lolwut? (0+ / 0-)
          Yep, Occupy just like Al Q.
          Just like Al Q?  Really?  Srsly?  WTF dude?

          Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

          by EdMass on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:02:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  read the front page (0+ / 0-)

            hunter's bit about Occupy fear mongering by security companies wringing the banker's wet pants of every last dime we gave them.

            wtf indeed.
            that was sarcasm...i tried.:>

            From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

            by KenBee on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:23:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  So when the FBI became aware (10+ / 0-)

        that these folks wanted to blow up something, what should they have done?  COINTELPRO was real, but I'm not sure this is it.  It is possible that 5 bozos calling themselves anarchists wanted ot make a big boom for May Day and purchased a bomb and placed the "dud" bomb by a bridge.  

        Should the FBI not act?   What if these folks got or created a bomb and blew up a bridge?  Don't you think that would have discredited anarchists (and probably had fallout on Occupy) more?

        This is Not Occupy.  Occupy is non-violent.  

        I'm from the Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner Wing of the Democratic Party!

        by TomP on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:10:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Except they bought the bomb from the FBI (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Odysseus, protectspice

          Even on this site if I wanted to, (which I don't), I could talk an imbalanced disenfranchised persons into doing something heinous for "the cause" whatever that might be to my victims.

          Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

          by Horace Boothroyd III on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:23:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, they did, but they had the intent. (7+ / 0-)

            What would you do?  Ignore their desire and take the chance they might builkd a bomb or buy one elsewhere?

            You assume the FBI talked them into it.  But it is as likely that the 5 approaches someone who informed and teh FBI set them up.  

            Should the FBI ignore folks who express desires to blow up things?  Or should they offer them bombs and create a crime?  The 5 could have said no.

            I don't have a lot of sympathy for jackasses who want to blow up things.  They harm Occupy and the left.

            I'm from the Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner Wing of the Democratic Party!

            by TomP on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:27:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Do you know what I do in that situation? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cany, Odysseus, wu ming

              I've been doing it for years and it works.

              I appeal to their logic, compassion, and humanity and talk them out of it.

              If that doesn't work I use examples from the past where such acts turn out horribly for the perpetrator.

              Did this with another Kossack less than two months ago. It does work. We have to be aware that people are under tremendous pressure and may not be able to make good decisions. The RESPONSIBLE thing to do is to get them to understand it will solve NOTHING.

              Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

              by Horace Boothroyd III on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:35:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's your job (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TomP, Sharon Wraight

                and I'm glad you did it well.  

                However, the FBI's job isn't yours - theirs is to pick up the pieces when persuasion fails.

              •  That's fine, but that is not in the FBI's job (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sharon Wraight

                description.  And what if the FBI thought they convinced them noit to blow up places, but the 5 lied or changed their minds and blew up the bridge.  

                I'm from the Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner Wing of the Democratic Party!

                by TomP on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:35:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Federal Bureau of Incitement? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Horace Boothroyd III, wu ming
                  That's fine, but that is not in the FBI's job description.
                  It should be.
                  Nobody in law enforcement should ever push for an escalation when escalation means getting people killed.

                  -7.75 -4.67

                  "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

                  There are no Christians in foxholes.

                  by Odysseus on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:50:05 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "It should be"? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sharon Wraight, Caipirinha

                    There is a debate to be had regarding intrapment, but isn't that a little silly?  

                    Since they provided a dud bomb, where is the people getting killed here.  

                    Would you take the same position if it were a racist who wanted to bomb a kindegarten?  They should talk him out of it and hope he chooses not to?

                    This has become ridiculous.  Idiots like these 5 hurt any attempts to make change.  Fuck them.

                    I'm from the Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner Wing of the Democratic Party!

                    by TomP on Tue May 01, 2012 at 12:46:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  If you can do that, excellent. We need more... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TomP, Sharon Wraight

                ... people who can wade into this mess with solid Circle-A credentials and talk people out of doing violent shit.  

                Anarchists built the Gilman Street club.  That's a major achievement and it still stands.  I was involved in that back in the day.  That's what the Circle-A folks need to be doing: building stuff that benefits the whole community.  

                If you can talk people out of doing bad shit and into building stuff that's good for everyone, more power to you.  If there's someone you can't convince, don't worry, the "fuzz"* will be on them sooner or later.  

                ---

                *Fuzz: 1960s term for police.  First time I heard it I laughed out loud.  

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 06:28:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Reading the Affadavit (3+ / 0-)

            It doesn't seem as though the perps had planned any violent activities until after the paid informant and FBI uncercover officer became involved.

            "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

            by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:18:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Obviously, IF that is the case, the two things (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sharon Wraight, TomP

              may be coincidence OR related, but we don't know.

              Regardless, anyone stupid enough to want to commit an act of violence and go through with it is not my idea of an Occupier and obviously isn't non-violent and shouldn't be associated with OWS at all.  On that, I think we could probably agree!

              People make decisions.

              I hope people will make good decisions.l

              202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

              by cany on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:40:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  They're not part of the Occupy movement (5+ / 0-)

                They were disruptors who showed up at Occupy meetings and tried to stir up trouble.  They were outside agitators who didn't find any support in the Occupy groups.

                "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

                by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:43:50 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I realize that. I am hoping OWS keeps them (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon Wraight

                  out!

                  But the association in the media will be with OWS, and I think we all realize that.  Just watch what Fox does with this.

                  It's a really unfortunate association, and false, obviously.

                  I didn't mean to imply they WERE part of OWS, but that they will be associated with it wrongly.

                  I just wish people would THINK.

                  202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

                  by cany on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:46:40 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Could you talk 4 people into something? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sharon Wraight

            You might be able to find one pursuadable nutjob. But could you find 4 pursuadable nutjobs in the same place?

            Also- some of these guys were fairly well known at the Occupy Cleveland movement. There is no indication that any of them are the type who stare into space and mumble to themselves.

          •  I read the whole document, and... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP, Sharon Wraight

            ..... even though CHS (one of the undercover guys) was occasionally a bit too talkative for my taste, it's really clear that the suspects made their own decisions and they had the clear intent to blow up a bridge, which would have caused multiple innocent casualties.  

            There was no "talking them into it," they were already gung-ho to go.  

            And interestingly, they talk explicitly about how they're in touch with a bunch of other anarchist groups who are going to "fuck up a bunch of cities" and then they named some of the cities.   Well guess what happened in the Mission district of San Francisco tonight?  And guess what's been happening here in Oakland today?  More smash-and-trash.  I'm hearing some kind of siren outside as I write this comment.  Hopefully it's just some routine thing, but who knows.

            These people are a fucking plague on our movement, and the sooner we basically gang up on them and chase them the hell out, the better.  

            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Tue May 01, 2012 at 06:22:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Prove it. (6+ / 0-)

        Goddamn I'm tired of seeing every violent thing done in the name of anarchy or Occupy dismissed as 'agent provocateurs' or COINTELPRO.

        I demand extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims.

        Show me some proof that the FBI forced them to buy explosives, told them where to plant them, coerced them into deciding on May Day - because you know that day has no significance for Anarchists at all, no not at all.

        These idiots are but a pitiful mockery of the core origins of the politico-anarchist movement. Not that the origins of anarchy are bloodless - far from it.

        But as a political and socio-economic movement, anarchism has been diluted, torn apart by forces both internal and external and ultimately has become a failed movement.

        Failed.

        Power-Worshipping Fascist

        by campionrules on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:14:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't get me wrong (5+ / 0-)

          I'm not one of the people out there saying that the black bloc is agent procacateurs. They are anarchists that break windows. I'm saying that there is a history of the police ginning up bullshit against people who would otherwise not be doing shit. We saw it in the environmental movement and now we're seeing it here. Breaking some windows at a march and blowing up a bridge are worlds apart.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:24:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  and I'd add that police infiltration has been (6+ / 0-)

          Shown to be fairly common. It's hardly an extraordinary claim.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:25:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  See I agree with this (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, GreenMother

            I absolutely think that police infiltration of social movements is extremely common - some would argue that they are doing their job by doing so.

            What evidence I don't see, is the police then instigating the violence. Sure, we all have these wonderful, shaky cam youtube videos that PROVE WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT THAT PROTESTOR THAT RAN BY AND YOU COULD SEE FOR 2.4 SECONDS WAS REALLY A COP. REALLY!

            I don't doubt the infiltration - but I demand to see evidence that the police are the leading force of the violent acts committed by some members of this movement.

            Specifically, I'd like to see evidence that this particular sting by the FBI was remotely entrapment.

            People have agency you realize. Even idiots, we think we're hard cord anarchists idiots.

            Power-Worshipping Fascist

            by campionrules on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:31:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I tend to take black blocs as being anarchists (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wu ming

              Because I know people who defend the breaking of windows as protest and I know that they are serious about it however self defeating. Its also self defeating to spend all out time arguing over whether these folks are provocateurs or not. In this case it just looks incredibly similar to other cases where the police have placed informants in groups to convince them to go out and break the law then arrested them. It doesn't count as entrapment because the police officers aren't the ones doing the convincing, but it's pretty much the same thing. I'll reserve judgement on this one because you're right, we don't know. I'm not going to give the feds the benefit of the doubt though.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:50:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Entrapment is a psychological game (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Odysseus, wu ming, protectspice, AoT

          It takes place over an extended period of time with one party gradually gaining trust of the others, identifying with their beliefs, etc. then gradually proposing activities that are more and more illegal and violent.

          The question that has to be answered is: Would these people have committed the same crime if undercover law enforcement officers had not been involved?

          That question won't be answered until all the evidence comes out during trial.

          We also have to consider that this operation also had the dual intent of discrediting Occupy Cleveland and providing an excuse to put activists with OC under increased FBI surveillance.

          "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

          by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:26:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  especially ironic (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice, AoT

        in that the anarchists (many of them who might consider themselves black bloc, or wear black) at occupy cleveland rejected these guys pretty clearly, and yet the moment these guys are entrapped into an attempted crime, the predictable blanket denunciations of black bloc anarchists comes out and smears those peaceful anarchists anyway.

      •  Anarchists discredit the movement & themselves (0+ / 0-)

        They have noone to blame but themselves. Nobody forced them or paid them to climb up there and plant bombs under the bridge. Nobody forced them or paid them to press that button.

        •  These people did this in their own words (0+ / 0-)

          Because occupy wasn't violent enough for them. I don't see how that discredits the movement. And while they weren't forced they may well have been goaded or convinced to do it by the informer. It's certainly happened before.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Tue May 01, 2012 at 05:46:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  If people like this aren't agents provocateurs (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KenBee, campionrules, TomP

      then they are particularly stupid since they aren't even getting paid by the 1% to provide a service vital to the 1%. The idiots could tell themselves they are decreasing the 1%'s wealth by taking their funding. Go for it, morons!


      The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

      by Jim P on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:06:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Good for the FBI! (0+ / 0-)

      dKossians owe a big "Thank you!" to the FBI agents involved. OWS needs to purge these 'weak links' from its 'chain' of alliances.

      There is no place for violence or property destruction in OWS. Thanks to the FBI agents for making OWS stronger and better.

      •  these guys weren't linked to OWS at all (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice

        they tried to join it, got rejected, and then the FBI talked them into some attempted terrorism.

        •  who decides? (0+ / 0-)

          It's a drawback of a loose, grass-roots movement -- there's no membership committee, it's hard to 'remove' or 'reject' anyone (though local groups can and do try), no official membership.

          Those arrested claim some links, but what does that mean?

          It was at the October 21 OWS event that the informant first met Douglas Wright, 26, who reportedly confided details of his group’s planned attacks... Of the five men arrested, four were involved in the Occupy Cleveland movement, according to their Facebook profiles...
    •  Blowing up a bridge could well be wanton murder (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharon Wraight

      This is not just a matter of graffitti or smaching a few windows.

  •  Nobody forced them to buy bomb material. n/t (5+ / 0-)

    Follow Me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/#!/TarantinoDork

    by TarantinoDork on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:03:55 AM PDT

  •  I blame society........nt (0+ / 0-)

    From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

    by KenBee on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:11:39 AM PDT

  •  wait, wut? (0+ / 0-)

    are these guys supposed to be somehow linked to the occupy movement?  It is taking me awhile to follow the logic here.  When I hear Anarchists, I automatically think right wing, drown the government in a bathtub, wingnuts.  The right wing policies, if followed as they promote them, would mean anarchy.  I never got the impression that the occupy movement wanted to destroy government and society.

    •  "anarchism" is a contested (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      campionrules, Odysseus

      theory.  Traditionally, anarchism is of the left.  The anarchists in Occupy seek consensus decision-making and are critical of  government and corporations.  Anarch-syndicalism was a 19th century doctrine roughly seeking control by workers through syndicates.  The politcial philosophy has developed over time in various ways, but it should be contrasted from libertarianism, which seeks gov't enforcement of contracts.

      I'm from the Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner Wing of the Democratic Party!

      by TomP on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:23:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The news media is already linking them (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cany

      to the local Occupy movement.  I doubt they are, but its likely that was part of the strategy.

      "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." Edward R. Murrow

      by Betty Pinson on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:35:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Of course, this * could * have been (0+ / 0-)

    something like another "fast and furious" debacle . . . .

    Nah, the FBI is way smarter than the ATF, no?  I Want to Believe!!

  •  I mean, the typical FBI entrapment stuff is common (8+ / 0-)

    ... but these fucking idiots did think it was a good idea to blow up a bridge, so as far as your scorecard goes...

                                           FBI-1 Liberty-0
    ... I have little sympathy for these jackasses.

    That said, I wish the FBI spent as much time busting, you know, actual criminals (Hello, banksters!) as they do setting up crimes.

  •  What is a "C4 detonator?" (0+ / 0-)

    "A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer

    by CFAmick on Tue May 01, 2012 at 10:40:16 AM PDT

  •  Good work FBI (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharon Wraight

    They did their job well here. Not entrapment.

  •  Why would Occupy Cleveland cancel... (0+ / 0-)

    ...their May Day events?  You can't make a unilateral decision to cancel your protest and then blame the government for canceling your protest.

    Romney '12: The Power of Crass Commands You!

    by Rich in PA on Tue May 01, 2012 at 11:26:17 AM PDT

  •  I disagree with this diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharon Wraight

    and give kudos to the FBI.

    I live in Cleveland, and my family sometimes drives over the bridge these people thought they were blowing up.  

    It's big news here of course.  These people were also talking about blowing up our Justice Center (where all of the courts are - would have killed many innocent people), our Federal Reserve Bank (same thing) and a cargo ship near our port (which, in addition to killing people, would have likely really messed up our river).

    I also know several Cleveland FBI people from the work I do.  They don't strike me as the kind of folks who would engineer this - they take following the law and proper procedure very seriously.  Anything's possible, but I'd need to see pretty specific evidence to think the FBI somehow created this.

    By the way, this is how law enforcement attempts to firm up evidence in "attempt" cases.  Since you don't want to let a defendant in a case like this actually blow something up, you'll end up getting him on "attempted" [fill in the crime the person wanted to commit].  In attempt cases, there is sometimes a gray area regarding whether the defendant actually intended to commit the crime, or was "just talking" (i.e., if the defendant didn't actually have it in his mind to commit the crime, it's not "attempt").  So, law enforcement will try to let the defendant go as far toward the commission of the crime as they safely can.  

    The latest news in the Plain Dealer is that these guys repeatedly sent texts that they thought would detonate their bomb.  They were actually trying to do it.

    There's no excuse for violence, and since this hits so close to home I'm especially glad for the FBI's diligence.

  •  "Interesting timing" (0+ / 0-)

    is the understatement of the year. It doesn't matter that these dupes probably don't understand the significance of May Day. I'd wager they're dim-witted punks like all of the previous "plots" have been staffed with.

    I actually got a real chill reading this story break.

    The message is to people who know the significance of May Day,  aka the first wave of civilians they reckon they'll have to "deal with" as more shit starts hitting the fan.

    First they came for the fake anarchists, then they came for the real ones.

    Then they come for the rest of us.

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